A number of our Intelligent Polymer Research Institute (IPRI) students have wrapped up their PhD studies and have either recently submitted their thesis or are set to graduate before moving on to their next career adventure. We caught up with a handful of them for our IPRI Interview Series to find out more about their work, how the post-graduate experience was for them, what’s next and more.
After first speaking with Sujani Abeywardena and Zhiqi Chen, we now catch up with Carly Baker, who researched the synthesis and characterisation of conducting polymers for bioelectronic applications. We have a conversation with her about all of this and more below.
Congratulations on your graduation, Carly! Can you tell us a bit about your PhD research?
My research topic was on the synthesis and characterisation of conducting polymers for bioelectronic applications.
To explain this, let’s consider pacemakers - they are amazing devices that save lives, but they are not perfect because they are made of incompatible metals that trigger scar tissue formation overtime. Over the last 20 years, research has shifted towards using organic materials that could replace these devices. But no one has solved the problem of the biointerface.
The idea of the project was to create conducting organic materials, such as polymers, that can better interface with our cells and tissues. Polymers are typically softer and more flexible than metal and the structures can be more easily manipulated than a metal. A promising way to improve the tissue/cell-polymer interface is to functionalise the polymer with a biomolecule. In my case, it was cholesterol. Not only can cholesterol provide biocompatibility to the polymer, but it can naturally order other molecules due to its liquid crystalline nature. As ordering is an important property for polymer conductivity and electronic stability, functionalising the polymers with cholesterol seemed like a promising method to achieve all the desired properties.
I worked on five projects which made up my thesis. I contributed to my field by showing that cholesterol functionalisation provides opportunities to create a biocompatible and ordered material. The emphasis however was that it is not easy and careful design of the structure, including methods of synthesis, was required.
Why did you decide to do a PhD at IPRI?
During my second year of undergrad, I did a year in industry at NICNAS, which is now AICIS (chemical regulatory body for industrial chemicals). One of the senior executives, Dr Kerry Nugent really inspired me. He seemed to know so much about chemicals and their reactivity. He would often shadow the minister in “Hot Topic” debates at parliament and just appeared to have all the answers. He was so delightful to talk to as well. He would never stray from teaching someone something.
From this year-in-industry, I had made up my mind that I wanted to do a PhD. At the time, my reasons were to learn how to research, to learn more about chemical reactivity and just to become a scientist that could help inform the rest of society about hot topics. But now that I reflect, it was so much more than I could have expected.
As for the reasons I came to the IPRI here at UOW, I kind of fell into the Institute.
After my Honours degree, I went travelling for a few months and upon return began working in a bar while I looked for a job in chemistry. I spent some time applying for jobs and attending interviews. One of the jobs that I applied for was the Research Assistant position at IPRI. One day in late September 2019, Prof David Officer contacted me and asked if I was interested in pursuing a PhD.
As much as I wanted to, I came out of my Honours degree feeling like I wasn’t good at research. It seemed like it came so easy to everyone around me, which made me feel intimidated and unsure of whether a PhD was right for me. That seems so silly now, because a PhD is research training!
I expressed my desire to work a little before starting a PhD, so David offered me a casual Research Assistant position at IPRI to assist with the droplet/double emulsion work using spiropyran derivatives. I was encouraged by both Prof Officer and A/Prof Pawel Wagner to apply for a PhD. After a few months working as an RA, I felt more confident that I could do a PhD.
What were the biggest things you learned throughout the process?
Science is not always black and white and in research, the question that you want to answer is not always clearly defined. Most of the time, no one has the answer, no one really knows. Every discussion is always based on what someone else says, which is based on what someone else has said… And so on. Therefore, it’s important to be very critical of what you read.
One of the most important skills that I gained through this process was becoming more critical. I also learned how to better communicate, express my thoughts and write more clearly. However, the most important thing I learned from this experience was how to learn. I feel confident that I can take any topic and become an expert it in. I feel empowered to ask questions, learn and think in my own way.
So, what’s next for you?
Currently, I am working at ANSTO as a Research Scientist on a grant funded project in hydrometallurgy. It is very different and unexpected, but after finishing my PhD, I felt like I wanted to do something a little different to what I was accustomed to. My personal goal of this project are to gain insight into large scale operations and commercial research and development.
What were the biggest challenge you had to overcome during your PhD?
I had a few big challenges to tackle in my PhD. It wasn’t so much the science - this was challenging in a different way, it was actually the fun part, at times pretty frustrating - but rather my mental health, self-esteem, and reactive behaviour in situations where I felt triggered.
In terms of confidence, the whole time that I was working on my PhD project, I did not believe that I had what it took to finish. I would often have nightmares about supervisors or even my GP telling me that I did not deserve it. As I was writing my thesis, my dreams became more intense and usually involved the reviewers telling me that I should downgrade to a master’s thesis because it wasn’t good enough. These feelings were very stressful and would make me feel worthless. That’s why it was so important to fill my time with other things - friends, running, swimming and paddling for example.
Every week, I would meet with my supervisors for a PhD meeting. I would present my work and receive direct feedback. This was very different to my honours degree or anything else I’ve worked on because I was always in the spotlight. I found these situations very confrontational, and I didn’t receive the feedback well. At times, I would often react and get emotional. For hours following these meetings, I would overthink my project, work and my life decisions. I would also feel so guilty for the way I reacted, which made me believe that I was a bad person and the worst student ever. Every Thursday during my second year of PhD, I wanted to quit.
I think these moments really helped me to understand the things that I need to work on. I put more effort towards trying to react less. I put a lot of work into calming myself during these moments and tried to take the feedback I was receiving to learn.
How about your favourite moment?
I cannot think of one moment that is my favourite, but many moments that add up overtime. From the conferences that I attended where I met so many amazing people and scientists, the Friday afternoons where a few of us would hang out in Jamie’s officer [a researcher at IPRI at the time] office, or the time when Danielle Warren and I shared an office for a few months.
I think back to all the advice, book recommendations, hiking or running tips and the random anecdotes from A/Prof Wagner. I also think of all the simple, but powerful things that Prof Officer said to me.
For example, as I was writing my thesis, I complained that it was so hard. “Don’t think of it as a challenge. Think of it as something that you do, which takes some time,” Prof Officer said. This changed the way I thought of writing, and it made me feel less anxious about the work that I need to do. It was such a great thing to say at that time.
One day in early 2023, Prof Officer was giving a talk at an IPRI seminar about his research journey this far. At the end he made a comment to all the PhD students, that went something like “I know it seems like forever, but a PhD does finish, it will come to an end, and you will move on…”. I think we (students) often get caught so up in our project that we don’t see or accept that it will end. This sat with me as I wrote my thesis and applied for jobs. At times when it was tough, I would think back to this and remind myself that this challenging time does not last. Things will end.
Can you offer any advice to current PhD students who have just started their journey?
Some advice that I have thought about a lot over the last few months, include;
Take it one day at a time; while it may seem like you are not achieving anything, it takes time. As long as you just keep going and don’t give up, you will get there. As Klaudia would say to me “A PhD needs patience.”
Find a hobby outside the lab to focus some time on; the best way to stop yourself from overthinking is to have something that takes some of your focus, when you’re not at uni/work/the lab. This is important for the times when your research is not going well. It helps you to feel more positive about other aspects in your life. Moreover, you don’t want to get to the end of your PhD and regret not doing things in your personal life.
Prioritise writing; I know this is obvious, but the one thing that I wish I did more of was writing. I left it too late to publish any research manuscripts before my thesis was submitted. I think I would have had a better understanding of my PhD, during my PhD if I had written more and asked for feedback.
The literature is your best friend; As A/Prof Wagner would say to me, “A day of reading saves you a week in the lab.”
Keep talking, keep socialising and ask questions: I think this last point is very hard, especially for a student surrounded by so many academics. This is still hard for me but I am trying hard to ask as many questions as I can. It took me a long time to realise this, but most people want to help you. For some, it may even be a self-esteem boost to be able to tell, show or teach you something.
After an IPRI seminar in my second year (second year because we were in COVID lockdown for most of my first year), I was so impressed with how Dr Ryder always had a question and a good understanding of what the seminar was about. To be honest, I found it difficult to concentrate in seminars that were unrelated to my research. I asked him for his strategy for paying attention and he said, “During every talk, I try to think of at least one question to ask. A good way is to write it down, so you don’t forget.” This was the secret! And it works for me most of the time.
Keep an ideas notebook; this was also a tip that Dr Wagner gave to me. During my PhD, I would often have ideas that I’d get so excited about. Instead of rushing into the lab to work on them, while I was working on other projects, he told me to write them down. Usually, the idea is not a good one, which saves so much time in the lab. But if it is a good one, then at least it was written down for later. I later began to realise the brilliance in this. Once you write it down, there is room to think about something else - like you're clearing your brain for other thoughts.
Thanks, Carly – and well done!
Carly will graduate at next week’s University of Wollongong ceremony on October 29. If you are interested in doing a PhD at IPRI, be sure to get in touch with us to chat more about the possibilities at the Institute.