Boss battles: Can you handle a tough manager?

[Mario Fernando]  Welcome everyone to a month of May Luminaries session. The topic is on Empowered beyond bad bosses; fostering workplace confidence and leadership. I'm Mario Fernando. I'm a professor of management and the director of the centre for Cross-Cultural management at the University of Wollongong. We have an important issue to talk about today- bad workplace practices, psychologically unsafe environments, and bad bosses. After unpacking some key issues, we will discuss what can be done, especially through leadership. Hopefully, in the end, we will provide some insights into how bosses and organisations can foster safer, more dignified and supportive environments. Before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge that we are talking about a sensitive issue. That some viewers and listeners might find challenging. Support is available by calling Lifeline on 13 11 14. That is 13 11 14 or the Employee Assistance Program, if your workplace offers this service. To begin, we are broadcasting this event live from UOW Radio Studios, which is on Dharawal Country. We acknowledge that country for Aboriginal peoples is an interconnected set of ancient and sophisticated relationships. The University of Wollongong spreads across many interrelated Aboriginal countries. That are bound by the sacred landscape. An intimate relationship with that landscape since creation. The university acknowledges the devastating impact of colonisation on our campuses footprint and commit ourselves to truth telling, healing and education. This afternoon, we come together to share knowledge through storytelling, which is an important Aboriginal cultural practice. We have a fantastic panel for today's topic. First, let me introduce Associate Professor Diana Kelly. 
 
[Diana Kelly] Thank you. Mario. I'm delighted to have been invited to this most interesting panel with all these very wise people. Let me start in traditional academic fashion. Just complicate the issue first. I think it is important to name and to know what we're talking about. We know family relationships can be complicated, but workplaces depend on relationships too. So every workplace is a very complex place, especially in this day and age of team silos, business units, competitiveness and multiple managers. This raises a second important point for me. Workplaces are not just binary organisations. Workers, bosses they're much more complicated. Many of us are workers and bosses. And it's not always linear. My immediate supervisor might be supportive and respectful, but their boss might be a shocker. Or in a university, someone may smear my teaching or my research behind my back, telling members of promotions committees or distributing funding. The point is that they are complex places. And there are multiple managers, so it's important to avoid the binary. The third important point for me was that workplace bullying, and that's the public name for toxic cultures and narcissistic bosses is again complicated. Workplace bullying doesn't actually need words either. For example, regularly excluding someone from meetings who should be there and then casting aside, well, they weren't interested, obviously- is bullying. Wilfully writing an incorrect report or an annual performance appraisal just so that a person or perhaps a employee or, whistleblower or complainer hoping they will resign is also bullying. Workplace bullying is treating a person badly. A person who has fewer power, resources, lower in the hierarchy generally and is causing psychological damage not by accident, but purposefully. This does not mean that the slackers are getting bullied. There's a there is a difference, as we all know, between a sociopathic supervisor meanly reporting a misdemeanour. So somebody will lose out and a manager putting a subordinate on a review process because their work is not up to scratch. Indeed, that is precisely why we need to know what is bullying. What is the toxic workplace? So that way the good guys can identify damaging and dysfunctional workplaces and look for ways to mend things. I sometimes talk about fixing things because some would say there are four possible responses to workplace bullying or toxic cultures fight, fix, fight, flight or fail. My colleagues here are all experts on the fix, so I'll hand it back to you. Mario. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you very much. That was Associate Professor Diana Kelly. If I were to introduce Diana, defending and protecting the employment rights of the least powerful people in society has been a lifelong passion of Diana. She has guided the international discourse in the industrial relations space. That's the current Editor in Chief of the Economic and Labour Relations Review, a respected international journal. Diana is a published author. And an honorary life member of the Association of Industrial Relations Academics of Australia and New Zealand. She has guided UOW through her senior leadership positions as chair of Academic Senate from 2008 to 2014, as well as with the New South Wales and national bodies of chairs of Academic Boards and Senate. Moving on to a second panellist, Dr Nelly Liyanagamage. She's a lecturer in the Faculty of Business and Law at the University of Wollongong. Nellie, PhD, explored Machiavellian leadership in business organisations. Her research is driven back by her previous workplace experiences and a passion for creating a positive working environment for everyone. She has published several journal articles on Machiavellian leadership, including in the Journal of Business Ethics and the Leadership and Organisation Development Journal. She has also contributed to informal publications. For example, an article in The Conversation on 'How to deal with a machiavellian boss'. So over to Nelly. 
 
[Nelly Liyanagamage] Thanks, Mario. Thanks, Di for that introduction as well. I'm really excited about this topic for several reasons, mainly because we're not seeing a lot of widespread toxic behaviours, not just in leaders, employees in society, in the political arena as well. I just want to touch on a few of the statistics that I found really interesting. Just in New South Wales recently, physical injury claims have increased by 11% and psychological damage has increased by 30% over just four year period. So that just shows how important this area is, not only for research, but for society as well. And the research also shows that this would cost Australians up to 39 billion AUD just per year in lost productivity. And this also accounts for mental health issues in a lot of employees as well as leaders as well. Just in 2022, 28% of workers experienced mental health conditions, which just shows how important and relevant this area is. And I'm really excited to talk to with this panel. And just to get the audience's thoughts and questions as well, to see how we can be helpful for them. Thank you Mario. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Excellent. Thank you very much, Nelly. I'm dying to get into those aspects. Let me introduce, our next panellist. She's from the industry. Nic Sullivan, a psychologist with 19 years of experience. Nic is also an esteemed alumni of UOW. She specialises in addressing the psychological impacts of work related injuries, particularly among veterans, first responders and individuals affected by psychologically unsafe workplace practices. As a consultant psychologist, Nick has supported high risk work sites across five countries and diverse industries. In 2020, he co-authored two impactful programs focusing on safety leadership and fostering respectful workplace cultures. This earned her a nomination for the 2024 Australian Institute of Health and Safety Award. What would you Nic. 
 
[Nic Sullivan] Thank you Mario. It's a privilege to be on the panel and I'm so excited about this topic. It might not be very sexy for some people to think about psychosocial risk in the workplace, but I'm among fellow minded people, which is really lovely. My first venture into this space was working as a fly in, fly out psychologist to the mining industry, and I was providing large group interventions to, leaders within organisations. I became quite, I guess, disillusioned with the process of helping people at the point of crisis and found that we needed to provide more proactive and preventative approaches to work related psychological harm. So for the last 14 years, I've really committed, my life's work to making sure that we're providing workplaces and leaders and individuals with the support that they need before a psychological injury occurs. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you Nic. Thank you. Okay. So that's our group of panellists, for this discussion. And, let's, get on to the questions. So to build the context to it, our audience might want to know who are bad bosses. When are bosses bad? Are they always bad? Why do they become bad? And also about toxic workplace cultures. Are they toxic to some and not to others? And why? What happens to subordinates of bad bosses and to bad bosses themselves? So. In order to look at the dark sides of the workplace and address these issues. More importantly, we are going to look at how can we overcome these issues. Through building work based confidence, perhaps by safeguarding dignity at work and through leadership. So, I would like to, first move on with Nic with this question. As a practising psychologist, you have considerable real world experience talking to people affected by bad bosses and toxic workplaces. What are the common issues that you come across in this space, Nic? 
 
[Nic Sullivan] To be honest, Mario. The most common issues we come across are not from overt bullying or overtly bad bosses. It's more so issues around Covid bullying. It's issues around people being excluded. As Di said earlier, poor management practices, people not being given the authority to do the work that they need to do, not being given the resources to do the job and do it well or not being taken care of. We see leaders, fail to protect people from harm, fail to support people when harm occurs and fail to promote, preventative practices in the workplace as well. And all of these things result in workers who become increasingly disengaged with work, and increasingly feeling unwell. The most common factors that lead people into treatment or lead people away from work due to their, bad workplaces or bad bosses. Actually not what you would think they would be. We would think major traumatic events might be a precursor to people, leaving work or leaving a bad boss. But it's usually poor change management practices and things like not having enough resources or time to do the job well, not having cover when they need to take time off for being sick or on maternity leave, not having appropriate pay in remuneration, or safe working conditions. The most common issues that we come across in, in clinical practice, we see a huge contributor, not just of the bad boss, but of the system that promotes a lack of resources and high job demands. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you. Nic. So, we might get into those, different levels, that are contributing to this issue. Sure. Yeah. Can I move on to, Lily next and ask you about these, monsters, the so called bad bosses. You did your doctoral study on Machiavellian leadership recently. Can you share your thoughts on these monsters? Who are they? Do they thrive in toxic workplace cultures? 
 
[Nelly Liyanagamage] Yes. Definitely Mario. The interesting thing about Machiavellian is that they're not obviously Machiavellian. They come across really charismatic. They might be your friend. Then you might feel like you can trust them. You might feel like you can confide in them, but at the same time, they might not reveal their true self to you, so they might. They're quite calculating. They are self-serving. They will be trying to achieve their own individual goals regardless of how it affects you. So as an employee, you're working with a machiavellian. That means you might think your boss is really caring, kind, but that could all be a facade. Behind all that, they might be trying to increase their own productivity. Take credit for your work. And there's several other things that Nic also mentioned that could be, Machiavellian behaviours as well. So the interesting thing about Machiavellians is, in that case, is that you might not realise that Machiavellians is, and also some people actually might like this sort of leaders, especially if as an employee, your goals align with someone like this. If you feel like, okay, this Machiavellian leader wants to achieve the same things as I would, then you might get along with your boss. And in which case, you might not necessarily see their Machiavellian personality as a negative thing. But at the same time, others might really struggle under a leader like this. They might feel a lot of fear. They might feel like they can't have the support that they need. They might start feeling anxious, depressed. And that goes back to some of the statistics that I was talking about, where in Australia, 28% of people have reported mental health issues, but that is only the people that have reported. There's a lot of people who don't feel safe enough to report. They're worried about how that would impact their job, how that would impact their, future. Sorry. That's a lot of issues underlying this as well. So things like these personalities, they're not obvious and it's really hard to tackle because of that. I hope that answers your question Mario. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Yeah. Yeah, that that's great. Thank you very much, Nelly. If I can, ask you about the toxic workplace cultures as well. What would they look like? Toxic workplace cultures. 
 
[Nelly Liyanagamage] Toxic workplace cultures that can, I think goes back to what Nic said. It might not really be obvious. It might not look, you know how you see in movies or TV shows. It might not be really obvious where the, boss throws things at you, physically abuses you. It can be really little things, but that can build up and create a lot of stress for someone. It can be just not being included as part of the team neglecting your opinion. Pretending to listen to you, but not really considering what you have to say. It could be, feeling like you're not part of the team. Excluded in different ways. Not being safe enough to speak to your boss about how you're feeling. And the really interesting thing is, when it comes to leadership, we tend to focus on the leader. I really should mention that toxic bosses are not the only toxic people. There are toxic employees as well. So when it comes to, when it came to this topic, when I saw beyond, bad bosses, I was really happy that we're talking not only about bosses, but about employees that can have informal influence on people in the organisation. And those informal employees can force, potentially a good boss to act in toxic ways as well. And that could turn into a really toxic workplace culture, because that toxic employee might one day become a toxic boss. And you see that often, you know, toxic, employees going up the hierarchy. And there can be success with, like I said, you know, Machiavellian, they're successful. So we need to talk about that as well, I suppose, later on, what happens when when we talk about personalities and, success? How do we how do we define it? And what does that mean for toxic workplace cultures going forward as well? 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you Nelly. That's a fascinating insight, actually. So, a toxic employee can be a toxic boss of another person. We shouldn't forget that as well. Right? So, we'll get back to that point as well. And now, Diana, Nelly talked about this issue at the individual level. If I can move on to, to an organisational and, more broader regulatory level, you have a passion for defending and protecting the employment rights of the least powerful people in society. And you have been doing that for a long time. What's the perfect breeding ground for a toxic boss? 
 
[Diana Kelly] There. I think what you start with is, is the culture, the old boys club, the culture of secrecy and in-group and, and outgroup. And I think that is part of what breeds in these kind of workplaces that Nelly was referring to it. And the, other aspect. Is that that some of those sort of toxic people. The mover uppers are very good at what's called managing up, though. Maybe rubbish supervisors in fact, or managers, but they're great at telling their boss just how wonderful they are, and coming up with great ideas and showing that they're fabulous, pity about their team. They're not quite so good, but we're working on that. But that there is that sort of level of toxicity that happens in part because people are not looking at what's happening. They don't look past the assurances, of a team leader or a manager, or, you know, somebody very senior. And I think that's what happens in some of the big public service organisations I was looking at in Sydney, where the people were great at managing up, treating their subordinates like rubbish. But as Nelly was saying, actually turning around and saying quite different things to their superiors. So that kind of feeds the toxic workplace. To improve it, yes, well, that would be this wonderful question. I think the the Nics of the world are doing a fabulous job. Yeah. And that's part of the practice. I also think perhaps because I'm an old fashioned academic, that you don't address dysfunctionality just in one way. You do need legislation, regulation, education and responsible CEOs and senior managers. They're all essential legislation, regulation and education. But they're not sufficient. I'm an old Sheila. I started work a long time ago when racism, sexism, ageism, and severe discrimination over sexual preference, disability, marital status were all standard practice. OHS was less important than a good. A safe workplace was much less important than the amount of danger money people were getting. It's been the legislation, education that have changed those attitudes and improved the workplace. But and I couldn't just have been proved by improved like good bosses. But there also needs to be those expectations of managers and employers. And that's, I think, where we're looking for the silver bullet, the magic answer to everything. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you very much, Diana. Can I also ask you about the regulators? What can regulators do address these, toxic workplace cultures? I think. 
 
[Diana Kelly] Do you think it's direct? Well, it's always difficult, but you look at the changes in occupational health and safety, for example. And these days we talk about Nelly's just given us some very good examples of mental health issues. That is part of what an employer's responsibility is. Employers have a legal responsibility to make a safe workplace for their employees, and that includes safe safety in terms of mental health. So we need the legislation. And it was been the same with a I mean, people today probably don't even know what EEO is, equal employment opportunity because there has been so much legislation more broadly. But things like sexual harassment that. The good boss needed the support of the good legislation to say to my workplace, you shouldn't do it. You shouldn't do this, you shouldn't discriminate. You need the anti-discrimination legislation. You need the anti-sexual harassment legislation. So it's not a matter of either or, but that with all of these terrible issues need to be fixed together. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you very much Diana. All right. Can I now get back to Nic, please. And lean on your nearly 20 years of experience as a psychologist. We touched on these issues a little bit, a little earlier, individually and for organisations, individually. What can someone who is stuck in a toxic workplace culture do? Is there self-help? 
 
[Nic Sullivan] It's a really good question, Mario. Individually, I think it's important that we recognise the harm that can, result from toxic workplace cultures, from bad bosses and systems that don't provide an environment that psychologically safe in terms of the acknowledging we need to look at. It changes the way that people's brains are structured. It can change the anatomy of the brain. For example, veterans, we see the size and shape of their amygdala change in response to post-traumatic stress. It can change the way that the brain chemistry works. And for people who experience adjustment disorder, for example, have a heightened stress response and higher cortisol, which is a stress hormone, produced by the adrenal glands. The other thing is it can affect the function of your brain. And one of the most immediate effects can be decision making. So it becomes very difficult for an individual who is, I guess, at the receiving end of a toxic workplace culture to be able to find their way out of the problem on their own. My strongest recommendation for individuals is that you need support. People that you trust, people that you can talk to. They might be friends and family. And for most people who need support, we see people getting support from friends and family. It could be your GP. Or it could be, health professional. In terms of the individual support that is available. A lot of larger organisations in Australia have employee assistance programs which provide free and confidential support, and I can vouch for EAP providers. The support that you receive will be confidential if they are ethically practising psychologists and counsellors. That support is there to get you back on track. And to provide kind of advice and short term treatment. If you do find yourself, with a high level of symptoms or great severity in terms of those symptoms, you may be experiencing a psychological injury that could be something like adjustment disorder, anxiety, depression, a stress reaction like post-traumatic stress disorder. And in those cases, your doctor can link you in with a registered practising psychologist and you are entitled to free treatment. In Australia, because of our insurance arrangements. So, your doctor can provide you with, correct kind of paperwork to make access to those services. Essentially, you're not alone. There are lots of, support organisations nationally and locally, and we've provided some copies of those resources for listeners and viewers. And we'll link them through to our website, at Business Grit and Resilience Health and Safety. So individuals shouldn't feel that they are on their own in terms of organisations. Really, there are two, approaches. One is to fix the individual, whether that be through extra training, extra support, extra supervision, writing, writing, new kind of procedures or retraining people. And then there is the higher level, control or approach. And that would be to fix the system. And in terms of fixing the system, we recommend redesigning work to make sure it doesn't injure people. Making sure that people have the right resources to do the job and do it well, making sure our leaders are appropriately skilled and trained for the work that they do, and that they are protective, supportive, and promote positive workplace cultures. And I guess, finally, organisations can really start to appropriately measure psychological safety in the workplace there. Some great resources and tools emerging. And I'd recommend anyone who's interested to look at your state and territory codes of practice for managing psychosocial risk. And they will point you towards what is your duty and obligation. And secondly, how we can meet that with tools and resources. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Yes. Thank you so much, Nic. Those are really valuable resources. And Diana. Yes. 
 
[Diana Kelly] I just thinking there are there you've got those kinds of resources, but there's also for example, the Anti-Discrimination Commission is now called anti-discrimination, but they have some really good resources on their site, as does the Human Rights Commission, and as does, for example, the trade unions, they or all of those organisations, I think, ultimately finish up sometimes sending people through that to talk to psychologists. But they all do have some very good resources. That can be checked, at any time, on, you know, on any website. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you very much. At this stage, can I kind of, get into a hypothetical situation then, you know, ask the panellists. Well, I feel I'm in a toxic workplace culture and that my boss is actually, the cause for me to feel that way. But also I am fearful that if I go outside and go to any employee assistance program or within the workplace that I might be targeted, victimised. It might get worse. How? How? How do I react? Like, you know, how do I overcome it? It's a kind of a pretty, difficult situation to be in. 
 
[Nic Sullivan] It's it's a common scenario that we come across. And unfortunately, Mario, people like that leave it way too late to come into treatment. They leave it till they're at crisis point and that promotes a lengthy recovery. In fact, people who have psychological injuries at work have four times the recovery timeline, on average, compared to physical injuries in the workplace. And the cost to the organisation is in the magnitude of four times what it would cost for a physical injury. So it's a big problem by that point. What I would encourage people to do is trust employee assistance programs in terms of their confidentiality. As a starting point, they, organisations receive very little information backed, from EAP providers about the people who are accessing services. It's usually data aggregated at the whole organisation level. So it's very difficult to figure out that it's Mario who's attending treatment. So I'd encourage Mario to access the support that is available within the organisation from independent providers. And secondly, speak to others within the community that you do trust. And that might be your doctor, that might be, a colleague from another organisation who might have some ideas to help you move forward. Each individual situation is quite different, though. And the individual context really does matter. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you. Thank you. Yes. 
 
[Nelly Liyanagamage] Sorry, Mario. I just wanted to add to that as well. I think it's also important that we realise even bosses are under pressure. Because there are targets for them to meet KPIs, especially in really high functioning organisations. As employees, yes. It is really difficult to be under a, potentially a toxic boss, but it's possible the toxic boss is toxic because of the environment that they're in, which is triggering them to be toxic. They might have all these targets to meet. They might be under pressure by their board members. They might, you know, their job might be hanging on the balance of their performance, or that might be a reason why they're putting pressure on the employees. So I think, I think it's important to realise that, you know, there are two sides to it as well. Of course, realising it's terrible to be, working under a toxic boss. But the boss might also be experiencing a lot of, emotional struggles themselves as well. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you. Nelly. Looking into, those, views, like, I see some parallels with whistle blowing. I even think that perhaps whistle blowing is, you know, an outcome of someone going through these types of toxic, toxic workplace cultures and toxic bosses or bad bosses. Have you had any experience, any of the panellists, with something like. Because we have hotlines for whistle blowing. I'm just thinking, do we have parallels like that to protect? Subordinates who are victims of these toxic workplace cultures to go out and, you know, give them that kind of benefit and that confidence to actually do what whistleblowers are encouraged to do. 
 
[Nic Sullivan] It's a great question. I think larger organisations have begun, with the implementation of things like anti-bullying advice lines. At large state organisations such as New South Wales Health have implemented programs like that. One of the biggest systemic problems is that our safety management systems, where we typically would report a safety issue, don't actually have the infrastructure to allow us to report bullying or harassment in a confidential way. In fact, most organisations, their safety management systems aren't equipped to handle that information sensitively, confidentially. And it it does cut across its private and health information sometimes. So there are considerations in terms of how organisations manage privacy of records that relate to someone's mental health. So it's a really tricky subject. And in my experience, smaller organisations haven't yet been able to find a solution. And I think the regulator plays a part here in helping us understand what good looks like. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you very much Nic for that. We'll move on to the societal, impact of all this. We hear so many stories of bad bosses and toxic workplaces, far less than good bosses and exemplary workplaces. So, can I ask you, Nelly, what are the potentially harmful effects of this aspect on our society? 
 
[Nelly Liyanagamage] Yeah, that's a really interesting question, Mario. I recently came across a, article in the Conversation by two scholars from, Monash University, where they've studied the behaviours and attitudes of school children after being exposed to certain social media influences. Not to name names, but this this person was really encouraging students to, be toxic. Think about, you know, encouraging bullying, and, and really creating sexist sort of ideologies. And not just for school children, obviously. It's available online for anyone. But this research shows that because of this rise in popularity among, certain groups of this certain individual social media influencer, school children tend to show bullying behaviours. They a being sexist to each other. And what's really interesting is it's it's noticeable at such a young age. And it's really scary to think that this next generation still in primary school, they're showing these really toxic behaviours at such a young age and it's really, you know, dangerous to think, okay, one day these kids will go into, you know, workplaces, they'll be employees, they'll be bosses. So what does that mean for our future? It leaves, you know, a big question about what's to come. How do we manage all these, information that's available? How do we feel to these information? Sorry that we're not allowing certain people to misuse that platform. And. Advocate for negative, scenarios. And this can really impact children and, future as well. Yeah. I feel like it's a really dangerous, area. Really? 
 
[Mario Fernando] Well. Yes, yes. That's. Wow. That's. Yeah. Pretty scary to think that it's happening, at, schools as well. And. Okie dokie. We need to have another session for that. And, can I ask, your thoughts on this issue? Diana? 
 
[Diana Kelly] Yeah. And I go back to my little bit, drum I was speaking before, I think that there are important ways in which governments and large public service organisations can lead, and develop awareness and consciousness. Of particular issues. We know that you can make some behaviour virtuous. And that just as you can make unvirtuous, vile, vicious. You can also make models of virtuousness. And I was thinking, many years ago, I was teaching in the MBA, and, we had the president of the then Anti-Discrimination board speaking to the student about discrimination. And he reminded the students that famous old, I'm still not sure if it's a myth or not that a fish rots from the head. And he was quoting this and saying that an organisation's morality. The relationships in that organisation actually begin at the top. And leading, making a virtue of certain things is important. If those at the top don't care about respect and kindness, then how the heck is anybody going to travel all the way through? Has the right idea is going to travel all the way through the organisation? How are they going to ensure that superiors and subordinates treat each other respectfully and honestly? And the other example I used to give to my MBA students, following up on a similar thing, was that one of the big American companies, many years ago when they had, some terrible actually, physical injuries, then brought in, set themselves up systems again, as Nic was saying, set up systems where the CEO was actually the chief occupational health and safety officer. So that what that meant was that they they were showing off the virtue of what good occupational health and safety was. And I think we can see just how readily bad ideas travel through society and through groups and through organisation. So we've got to kind of model that and get the good ideas through. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Excellent. Thank you so much. Oh, wow. Now we are getting into the deep end of this discussion. And actually, I am going to move into the question and answer segment. We have our first question. How do you recover from a toxic workplace after you leave? Anyone. How do you recover from a toxic workplace after you leave? 
 
[Nelly Liyanagamage] I'm happy to answer that because, in my previous employment, after I graduated, I was quite young. I was around 20, and I went into a quite a large organisation to work as an intern. And I had a really terrible experience. I think, I was discriminated based on my age, my height. And I also judged on my intellectual capacities. And my social interactions were questioned as well. I had a terrible experience, and I left that organisation, because of that terrible experience with my boss. I think one of the reasons that I got into this. Researching on Machiavellian is researching about dark personalities. That was one of the main reasons I wanted to find out. Why are people being like this? Why are they behaving towards me in this way when I've never done anything to hurt them? I'm there to gain experience. This is the first time in an organisation for me. And why am I treated like this? And it took me a long time to really recover from that. And I feel like I'm still think about those experiences to this day. And I think it frames who I am and my identity as well. It's not easy to recover, even though I would say some people may have had more, you know, worse experiences than I have. It really sticks with you and it makes you question yourself. I think the best, support for me was my family in that moment. Family, friends, speaking to people about those experiences. And now I feel like being open about it really helps as well. And understanding more about people with that sort of dark personalities. Understanding about toxic bosses and trying to understand why they are the way they are. Really helped me get through that. And it takes time to recover, I think. And, I'm sorry for anyone who's had terrible experiences with the boss, or outside of the workplace as well. Like Nic said, it definitely takes support. Having that support system to really recover from something like that. Yeah. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Oh, thank you so much for sharing that experience, Nelly. Can I also ask? I mean, I want to just tell you, and ask you look where you are now, given that experience. And that experience is really valuable for someone who's actually struggling now. So can I ask you, you know, did that experience, what did that experience do to you? Did it make you stronger as a person and get more motivated and inspired about challenges in life? How did you cope like what was the process if you want to talk about it? 
 
[Nelly Liyanagamage] Yeah, definitely. I think it definitely made me stronger because I went through a learning journey myself. I understood more about myself. I understood that perhaps it's not about me. They might be having their own issues that they're dealing with, and they're taking it out on me. And I think having that experience made me understand myself a lot more, having that awareness of myself as well. And I do now question as well. Am I a bad person as well? I think having that self-awareness really helped me with developing my relationships. I think working in teams and, in leadership positions now, I always wonder. Am I like that? You know. Is anyone else feeling, like they're, you know, unsure or not confident in themselves because of me? So I think self-awareness is one of the main things that I took away from that journey as well. Trying to question, okay, am I the problem here? I think that's really important as well. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you very much, Nelly. Thank you very much. Nic, do you want to contribute to that? 
 
[Nic Sullivan] Yes, absolutely. It's tricky for each individual because their circumstances are so different. A skill that I find really helpful across the board and one that's actually similarly to Nelly, shaped my own experience in practice as a person, a parent, a boss, a leader, and and an employee is looking at a concept called locus of control. Essentially, there are things in life that we have control over and they're fairly limited. They're what we think, what we feel, what we say and what we do. And in Nelly's case, she voted with her feet and she left an organisation that was not, safe or supportive at ultimately, that that's a difficult step to take and not always available to us as employees. But we can change the way that we think about our situation and we can change the way that we feel as well. How can we do this? We can reframe our experience. A lot of the time. I find people who are subject to bullying and harassment can blame themselves. They can overly focus on their their faults or their errors. They can blame childhood experiences and say, if I had have had something different, then maybe people wouldn't exclude me. But I'd encourage people to look at is the way that you're thinking about your situation helping you or is it holding you back? And maybe that's one thing that we can do differently. The second thing is, a lot of people who are victims, or feel excluded or psychologically unsafe, stop influencing. So they stop trying to manage upwards. They stop trying to challenge, they stop trying to change cultures. And I would say this is a really important move if you can step up and if you can challenge unsafe behaviour and do it in a way that is respectful and do it in a way that actually speaks your true voice, that can be really empowering. The third thing I'd encourage people to do, and it's probably the most difficult part of this situation, is to accept the brutal facts. There are some things in organisations, in bosses behaviour and sometimes in ourselves that we cannot change, no matter how much we would like to. An Admiral, his name is James Stockdale. He was famous for coining the term brutal facts. And he says you must never confuse faith that you'll prevail in the end with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they may be. And I think for people who are in a toxic workplace environment, if you focus on the things that you can control and the things that you can influence quickly accept the brutal facts and take action. Like I said earlier, to fix, then you'll be in a much better position. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Oh that's great. Thank you so much, Nic. And thank you, Nelly. Can we move on to the second question? And it's about the, EAP, employee assistance programs. What do you think of workplaces that do not offer any staff support beyond EAP when workplace issues are raised? Anyone. 
 
[Nic Sullivan] Unfortunately, and I might have things to say about this as well. It's it's the rule rather than the exception. So many organisations are using EAP as a coverall for any psychosocial risk. And it's not enough. EAP focuses on individual problems and helps an individual navigate potentially a bad boss or a poorly functioning system of work, but it doesn't fix the system, so it's definitely not enough. And organisations need to do better. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you. Thank you Nic. And the next question is also related to, EAP. We are often referred to EAP, but very seldom see any actions by the toxic leaders. And we are left feeling like we don't matter. It can feel like we are punished and there are no consequences to the leader. How can we affect change?
 
[Diana Kelly] Back to brutal facts. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Yes, and brutal facts. 
 
[Diana Kelly] I mean. It's it's pretty sad, but, I think what we're all coming to agree, even though we're coming from quite different, intellectual things, we're coming to agreement that it is getting those structures and systems right. That is very important. And, in this, in the, the various examples that that we're hearing of here, the systems people go and fix a person, even though the person didn't need fixing originally, it was only when they were damaged by the the bully by the toxic person. But what's happening is that they try and fix the person or make them go away. Flight. But the other person, the bully, the narcissistic person, continues on their merry way until somebody in the system sort of picks up on it. But that's and that's why there is this need for, for having systems that pick up on this, having ways of identifying, high turnover, ways of identifying. Why did so many people leave and that like coming it up with some systemic ways of dealing with it? But my heart goes out to anybody who's had to go through that because I've seen it with with colleagues. And when I've been, when I've had material fact in the conversation, I would have, you know, ten or 20 or 30 people write to me and say, this is what happened to me, because I felt unheard by the by this by their own organisations. And there is this need for not just good leadership from the top, but also structures and systems that actually support those ideal behaviours and relationships. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you very much, Di. I think that kind of answers or touches on to the next question as well, because, it's a comment actually. But framed as a question at the end. If the boss is toxic and under a toxic box, then sorry, boss themselves, that surely isn't a problem the employee should be expected to carry. So again, that kind of pointed out to what, I was saying about the systemic issue, in this, in this matter right here. We also have a question on the human resource management's role or the department's role in this. Does human resources process work for the employee at all, or is it all about self-preservation for the company? 
 
[Diana Kelly] I got asked this question when I was giving a seminar at a university in UK many years ago when somebody said look Di you just got the wrong end of the stick. You just need good human resource managers and everything will be fixed. This was mind you, 20 years ago when people thought more of human resource management, I think present company excepted, of course. But I made the point there that in fact, just the previous week, in, in the UK newspapers. There was some evidence and then some research published that showed that 70% of human resource managers in the UK said they had been bullied in the last two years and show that they are also dealing with, and this is what I was talking about, it's not just workers and bosses, this stuff everywhere. But the very difficult thing is getting, human resource management to, to deal with some of these issues because they are dealing with all of the other pressures of the organisation as well. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you, thank you. 
 
[Nelly Liyanagamage] Anyone? Yeah, that's really interesting because I wanted to point out the experience that I had was a HR manager. So it's, really interesting to think, okay, what if the HR manager is a toxic boss? What do you do then? Yeah.
 
[Mario Fernando] Wow. Well, well, well, well, I think, that actually leads nicely to this. Next, comment and a question. While psychological help for employees is appreciated, what really needs to be addressed is the sociopathic and psychopathic boss. 360 feed back regularly when they start a new role and every 12 months need to be done. And if serious issues are found, this has to be dealt with, not have the person moved to other areas for their unethical behaviour to continue. Unfortunately, sociopaths won't and can't change. There are no consequences for poor management, incompetent management. Do you want to reflect on those or comment on that or agree disagree insights? 
 
[Nic Sullivan] It's a common. 
 
[Diana Kelly] Yeah. 
 
[Nic Sullivan] It's a common issue that, people have moved sideways within organisations to different departments, or potentially that person might have an area of subject matter, regional, subject matter expertise that can't be replaced easily. And they might be, a highly qualified, expert in, in a niche area of their field. And it can feel like there is no, reprimand or they're above reproach. I think in these instances, we need to use all of the systems that we have at our disposal, and that combines focusing on systems that might support us as individuals responding to them, like ERP, but also our safety management systems, like continuously reporting, issues that are occurring at using our HR business partners and professionals and using our regulatory bodies as well to tackle the problem. Because when you have systematic bullying and harassment, we need a team of people to be able to respond. 
 
[Diana Kelly] And that's the point. We come back to systems and structures. And even with 360 degree feedback, it's a lovely idea. But I've seen that, process, mixed up by people just choosing who that does, they have 360 degree feedback and that's they're all important things to try. But there are flaws in all of them, which is why we've got to keep approaching this notion of making the work, the good knowledge, the good ideas, the dominant ideas. Not that. Grab what you can, who you can. 
 
[Mario Fernando] So we talked a lot about systems and structures. And, you know, during the discussion, like if, a founder of an organisation or a boss is listening to this conversation, what can an organisation do to implement, develop, maintain, extend the existing systems and structures? Any thoughts, ideas. 
 
[Nic Sullivan] Programs that focus on the virtuous behaviours like Di was talking about before, which promote behaviour, which challenges workplace bullying, which holds people accountable. We can do this at the team level. We can set a standard of behaviour that we expect from each other and then repeatedly as a team, hold each member of the team accountable to that standard. These type of workplace interventions can empower the team to push against that one person, whether it be the bad boss or or the toxic employee. We as a team can work together because in my experience, the majority of people who are coming to work, coming to work to do a good job, and they treat each other with kindness and respect and dignity. And if we been together, challenging each other, stepping up to the plate, I think we can do a lot of good. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Good, good. Thank you. Thank you. Nic. Right. We talked a lot about bad leadership and bad bosses. There is a question about good leaders. What are the qualities of a good leader? How can we foster a more virtuous leadership style in our workplaces? We I think we were just talking about it. But what are the qualities of a good leader? 
 
[Nelly Liyanagamage] I would say from my experience, I'll relate back to my, research. One of the really interesting experiences was talking to Machiavellian bosses. In my interviews with them, they said that I asked them, how do you know? What do you think your employees thought about you? They said, oh, I think they love me. They think I'm a great boss, you know, they think I'm great to work with. And I think I'm a great boss too. And when I went and spoke to the employees, they were really scared about their boss. They were. They did not want to speak out about their boss. And I had the feeling when I was sitting with the employees that they were really scared to even tell me anything about their boss. So they were there, they really shut down and the boss thought they were, you know, they thought they were grand boss. I think a take away from that is self-awareness for anyone, I think not just, not just bosses, but employees as well, because we do tend to point our fingers and say, oh, look, I think that person's toxic. I think that person's a narcissist. We go around evaluating others, but do we really spend time thinking. Am I a toxic person? Am I hurting anyone in my organisation without knowing? Wonder what do other people think about you? I think self-awareness is a very important quality for a good boss to be aware of how, their behaviours affect others and also try to have sort of immature emotional intelligence to understand how are other people reacting to the way I'm behaving? Are they okay? What can I do to make this place feel a bit more psychologically safe for them? Yeah. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you. Yeah. I would like to add, in terms of, qualities of a leader. The word responsibility, a responsible leader, I think, can't be a bad boss if you are a responsible boss, a responsible leader. I think it is, innately required that you actually are responsible for not only the shareholders, not only to profit making, but to all stakeholders as much as you can. It's not easy. So there is this, you know, using academic jargon, the responsible leadership, a new form of leadership style where they talk about being responsible not only to the internal parties in the organisation like the employees etc., but also to the external stakeholders like the government, the customers, etc. etc.. So if a leader is required to kind of cater to these responsibilities to those external as well as internal parties. Then, the big question is whether that person can be a bad boss. What research says is, well, responsible leaders actually are required to and can. Add. Positive. Values. Value additions to society. So they kind of make a positive social impact because they are actually catering to not only to the internal needs of the organisation, but to the external organisations as well. So I'm just throwing that idea out, about being responsible, whether that can kind of. Yeah. Help bosses to move from bad to good. 
 
[Nic Sullivan] I think it's a beautiful point, Mario, and it helps us zoom out from the individual level, through the organisational level through to the community and global community space. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said, and at the same time, I'm feeling for that individual leader who is now responsible for multiple levels of an organisation, not just internally but externally, to our community, to our economy, to our, sustainable kind of environment. I think we are holding leaders accountable for a lot these days, and it becomes a risk again to that individual leader and their stress. And a lot of leaders are under great amounts of pressure. So although I think that would help individuals within an organisation feel confident that they have a responsible leader, then perhaps we're moving the problem further up the line. And that can be tricky. 
 
[Nelly Liyanagamage] I also agree with Nic. I should mention, yeah. Only because, when you put a lot of those responsibilities on a leader, you go back to that traditional concept of leadership where the leader is the centre of leadership. You see a leader as a hero, someone capable of doing anything, someone capable of saving everyone, a superhero. And. And I don't know if in practice if it's possible. We're all humans and we all have good and bad. Can someone really be that responsible in every aspect of within the organisation as well as outside? So I think it will end up putting a lot of pressure on the leader, which might make them toxic, could trigger that sort of personalities at the end. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Very insightful. Rightio. Thank you very much. So we were talking about good leaders, all the qualities of a good leader, and, the words, virtuousness or virtuous behaviour, virtuous qualities were tagged with a good leader, as well as, basically walking the talk and, you know, acting, from the top, role modelling, etc.. So if we move to the next question. Are there any protections in place to protect individuals who have raised complaints and problems from toxic bosses, from unwanted targeting and execution of sorry exclusion of employment in their respective fields? We kind of. Yeah. Touched on it. 
 
[Diana Kelly] So let's goes back to what you were saying. Yeah. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Exactly. So, the main, theme of this question is the protection of individuals and, what type of systems and structures we were talking about. Is there anything more to add to this? Anyone? 
 
[Nic Sullivan] So all organisations, in, in New South Wales and in Australia, must have safe systems of work which provide opportunities for employees to engage, around issues that relate to, health and safety. But also it requires workplaces to consult with individuals as well. Different businesses have different consultation arrangements. You may have a health and safety representative, or you may have a committee. You may be able to, participate in employee, surveys throughout the year. And these are the mechanisms by which should provide protection for people who are experiencing, bad bosses or toxic workplace cultures. So we encourage individuals to use the systems that are there, even though they're not quite, as nuanced for psychosocial risks and psychological health. We do have, quite highly evolved to work health and safety system within this country. And we can use the same systems that you'd report. You know, a dodgy set of stairs or, an issue around chemical safety. For the issues that relate to psychological harm. So if you have concerns about, say, for example, fatigue in the workplace or stress in the workplace or bullying in the workplace. Think about where you'd report your physical injuries. And follow that system. 
 
[Mario Fernando] I think that, kind of is a nice segway to our next question, which is a, yeah, individual experience that, this person is going through. So the question is, what if you work for a very small workplace which doesn't have EAP? You have five employees, and my boss bullies me often. Regardless of my constant efforts, I don't know who is above a small business bad boss. We do have a non-paid committee since it's an not for profit business. Any thoughts? Help! 
 
[Diana Kelly] I think this is where you go to the experts, isn't it? And that the psychologists say if you're a GP in the community, sources, it must be frightful. And particularly if it's a non-profit, if you're doing something because you're trying to make the world a better place. And then find you're being bullied. That's a pretty tough, circumstance. And perhaps probably again, some people can change jobs easily. As you were saying, some people can't change jobs easily. And it's, I think, important that, you know, we can I can say our flight is the obvious, statement, but clearly, if you need to stay in this job for one reason or another, dealing with it is very, very tricky. And, I guess you start with community, with GP's and some GP organisations actually have psychologists working with them as well. But I would pass that on to Nic is obviously much more of an expert on these things than I am. 
 
[Nic Sullivan] Absolutely. And if if that bullying behaviour is repeated, it's likely it has resulted in some form of symptoms and, and injury. And in that case, you'd be entitled to free treatment, through your general practitioner. But it's a difficult position to be in, especially if you're in a rural or regional community, and there's not many jobs on offer and you're paying the mortgage or supporting family and children and being a carer. That's a really difficult spot to be in. Safework, New South Wales and most state and territory regulators also have resources on bullying in the website, in the workplace, on their websites. And there are specific ways in which you can report bullying directly to the regulator. I have seen some positive examples where employees of an organisation have reported directly and the regulator have come in and investigated, and it has resulted in some positive kind of movement. So there are systems that can go above and beyond the leader within a small business. And I'd encourage you to use those external resources. 
 
[Diana Kelly] In fact, going back on what I was saying earlier was, it's the same with the Human Rights Commission. They have they have a system. There are contact us and we'll tell you what, what can be done from here. So there are these broader organisations that that are available, and don't always come up with the best solutions. But they are there, they are listening and we'll try to come up with a good solution or always a good way of of dealing with what is obviously a pretty awful situation. 
 
[Mario Fernando] What about mentors or, you know, trusted others in your life? What role do they play? Can they play a role? 
 
[Nic Sullivan] They can play a very positive role in people's lives, whether it be a sporting coach from your football team, whether it's a teacher that you studied with, whether it's, a church member or somebody who can provide you with that external perspective, that can be really helpful if you feel stuck in an environment. Also, one of the ways that we can find ourself another role in the community is typically reaching out to our own social network. So you might be able to look for other work by reaching out to your network as well, while seeking their support and guidance. It's a great point, Mario. 
 
[Nelly Liyanagamage] It might be important also to consider speaking to the other employees as well. Maybe they're also going through a similar sort of a journey, but worry to share it with you. So that could be an option as well, where when you as a collective, then you have more strength to fight this leader who is bullying perhaps everyone in the organisation in different ways. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Very good, very good. Thank you. Thank you. Let's move on to the next question. What advice would you have for leaders? When an employee discloses they feel they may be bullied, but at the same time doesn't wish to provide details or formalise a complaint or participate in an investigation. Only two months later. Go to a doctor and lodge a worker's compensation claim. At times, it feels like they can take away the option of doing something and supporting them. 
 
[Diana Kelly] Yeah. 
 
[Nic Sullivan] It sounds really frustrating. And as a leader, the, the new legislation, that has largely been adopted by most state and territories in Australia allows the leader, I guess increased power to say it is my duty and my obligation to report. Latest now have a positive duty to proactively identify and manage psychosocial risk, and we can't just sit on our hands anymore. Similarly, if a worker was to come up to a leader and disclose a chemical safety problem, but say, oh, no, but I don't want you to share that with anyone, we as leaders wouldn't do that anymore because of our duty and obligation under the Work Health and Safety Act. And new legislation empowers to expand that duty to include factors like bullying and harassment in the workplace. So we as leaders have, I guess, more power than ever before to act proactively, and to provide protection to workers, who are at risk and support workers who have been impacted as a result of a psychosocial hazard. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Nic. Yeah. Thank you for that. Nic. Is there any example, that you can share with us? Of, you know, a real world example where. From an organisation. Someone reached out to you and you know something that is really, you know, unique. For example, perhaps the most significant or something out of the box that is, you know, stuck in your mind. 
 
[Nic Sullivan] Look, there's there's a lot in 19 years of practice, but potentially one that might, relate to some of the listener questions that have come up already. Was a couple of employees who had, commenced, seeing psychologist privately through the one clinic. They were from the same organisation. It was a small organisation and both had reported independently to two separate psychologists. Bullying behaviour. They had done everything that they could within the organisation to challenge, including going to this small organisation's board. And hadn't had any success in being able to tackle workplace bullying. Independently, they were advised to seek advice from their general practitioners because of their level of severity of their symptoms was increasing. And one of them contacted Safework through, a specific bullying reporting mechanism that they have on their website, which is available to all employees in in New South Wales with New South Wales employers. What we found was once those two employees had had recognition that they had, in fact, experienced a psychological injury as a result of workplace bullying. It led to them feeling more validated. It led to them feeling someone is listening. And I feel understood. I feel like people treat me with dignity. And the regulator in the coming weeks went to the organisation and conducted multiple interviews. That resulted in the bully having some pretty serious, reprimand as a result. Sadly, neither worker returned to work for the organisation. The bullying had gone on too long and this system hadn't supported them. They didn't feel that they could connect back with their colleagues or their work. Both did move on to other employers and had very kind of successful, second and third jobs as a result of those movements. But one of the reasons it sticks with me, Mario, is that the bullying was quite subtle in some, in some respects. One example, was an employee, had, raised, an idea for an improvement to try and link, shopping that the organisation was doing on a regular basis with a rewards program so that they could try and save some money and contribute to things later in the year, whether it be a, a workplace celebration. This was later used by the employer, saying that the employee was, taking private advantage of the organisation. So bullying doesn't need to be very overt. It, it can include people taking credit for your work. It can include being cut off in a meeting, people not listening to your, recommendations. It can be as subtle as not being provided with equal training opportunities as other employees. It doesn't need to be big, overt, violent, aggressive, verbally abusive sexual harassment, although those things are absolutely serious concerns within some workplaces. But this systematic kind of putting down on people and telling people that, you know, you're not of any value here can have a very detrimental and life altering effect on people's lives. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you so much for sharing that, Nic. Diana, you want to?
 
[Diana Kelly] It just reminded me that, one of the, universities in New South Wales, that was, an employee having problem with, with their manager and in a big way. And they were being picked on left out of conversations, not being told of meetings and then commented on, and they were terribly frightened and went to their GP. And the GP said to them, have you talked to your union at your, at the university? And they said, no, I hadn't. They went talk to the union person and on on at the university, who was a very strong and unafraid sort of person who said, well, why don't we go and talk to your manager? And the person was very frightened, but the union person was was terrific. And actually she said, I'll come with you. So like empowered them to go and talk to the manager. And, and in fact, the manager felt that that had some other issues with the employee, but actually, had not realised just how encompassing their bullying had been. And sometimes managers don't they will come to an organisation or to a, wise psychologist and say, I've just been picked up for bullying and I didn't know I was a bully. But in this case, the manager had actually probably been picking, but complained. But they sat down because this employee felt with the strong person beside them, they could say what they were experiencing and and things weren't going to be perfect either. But they did improve hugely until the manager herself themselves actually left, the organisation a few months later. But there are those kinds of ways sometimes to deal with it. But it's, it's such a difficult and it's Nic and and Nelly are saying, you know, their individual circumstances for each one of these. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much, Dai. Let's. Perhaps there are so many questions coming through. I don't think we will have enough time. Sorry to attend to all the questions, but we will respond to each of the, questions, through, email. I think we will take the last question here. What are some of the differences between bullying and assertiveness? So, you know, if a boss wants to be assertive or if an employee wants to be assertive, that can come across as bullying as well. To some.
 
[Nic Sullivan] Yes it could. Absolutely. And and the perception of the person receiving is very important in this sense. So it's really important that we as leaders, as Nelly was saying before we become consciously aware of the impact that we are having on others in terms of it might be the our tone of voice, or it might be our body language, or it might be the words that we use, or the the pace at which we want to receive information from our work is because all of those things might be perceived by another person to be bullying. So they are important considerations to make. I think it's important that all of us are able to demonstrate assertive behaviour when it matters, and when it relates to really kind of business critical matters and issues around people's safety and issues around the organisations, you know, future direction, for example. But we can be assertive and respectful at the same time. We need to make sure, though, that others perceive our assertiveness as respectful, and making sure we get feedback from our work is all the time is a is a nice way to make sure that our tone is right, because I think most leaders who turn up to work want to have a psychologically safe workplace, and they want to do a good job, and sometimes that we don't quite hit the mark. So checking in with people like, how did that kind of, team meeting go? Or how did you feel when I introduce that new kind of policy idea? I think it's really important that we get kind of that two way communication and transparent information coming from, workers to leaders and vice versa. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Essentially be respectful and be humane. Yeah, treat the other one that you would like to be treated yourself. So. Yes. That's, the questions that we can take from the allotted time. And I would like to now, move on to the panellists and, invite you to share your final thoughts. We have five minutes left. Tonight. Nic, can I start with you, please? 
 
[Nic Sullivan] Of course. So as Nelly started us with this, statistics around psychological injuries in Australia is increasingly alarming. There is a really strong business case and a burning platform now because organisations, already have new regulations in force. We need to do more. There is, you know, a lot of room to improve in terms of creating safer systems of work as it relates to psychological injuries in the workplace and providing, protection and support and promoting positive mental health in the workplace. But for individuals who are currently struggling, my strongest recommendation is to talk to others. We began to improve physical safety in workplaces where we stopped hiding when people get injured at work. And I think if we start to do the same around matters of bullying, sexual harassment, high workplace demands, stress, mental health in the workplace will begin to open the conversation. That be my final closing remarks. Thanks. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you so much, Nic. Nelly. 
 
[Nelly Liyanagamage] Yeah. So I think one of the things I'll stress on is that everyone really should be aware of, how they are treating others. Their own self-awareness is really important to creating a psychologically safe space for everyone, including themselves as well. And also, I think these sort of conversations are really important to create a more safe space for everyone going forward where they feel like, you know, there's someone they can turn to. And openly speaking about these issues are very important so that people can understand different ways that, toxic leadership or toxic behaviours can, be seen in workplaces like Nick, Nick mentioned. It can be really subtle behaviours that might be, bullying and it might not really be that obvious. So I think conversations around different ways that toxic leadership can take place is really important, because there might be people who are experiencing these experience in these behaviours and thinking, okay, is it me? Am I the problem? So having that knowledge and, enabling this knowledge to be transferred to everyone, even including schools, is really important, I think, to create a safe space. Not for now only, but for the future generations as well. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Thank you. What about Diana? 
 
[Diana Kelly] Yeah. Look, I've probably spoken too much already, but I'll say my last piece. Anyway, it is important to remember that in general, we all agree people have a right to be safe at work, safe from harm, whether it's reputational, physical, or psychological damage. So we all have a responsibility for calling out bullying to make sure that we're not the silent supporters, and that we can offer suggestions and help. We need legislation, regulation in education, but we also need employers, managers and supervisors who are honest and committed to fear free workplaces. And I think we can follow all of that through. The last thing I'd like to say, Mario, is I think you've done a wonderful job as moderator, and I'd like to thank you very much. 
 
[Mario Fernando] Oh I'm moved. Thank you so much, Diana. Okey dokey. So we are at the end, of today's fascinating discussion. And thank you very much. To the panellists. Just a reminder that, some of the support resources, graciously, made available by Nic, will be emailed out to everyone who has been, who has registered for tonight's, webinar. Also, the webinar is recorded and will be available on UOW's YouTube channel over the next week. So in closing, we have had a fascinating talk about a very real topic in our lives. I think we named the problem for sure, and shared some useful tools to identify and address the issue at the individual, organisational and societal levels. I think it is important to identify bad bosses and toxic workplace cultures so we can start addressing this issue. And they are real, useful things. As we shared, we discussed real, useful things we can do to overcome these issues. By looking at ways to empower ourselves, we can gain workplace confidence so that we can all work in places that appreciate us, and can experience meaning and dignity at work. Leadership is key to making subordinates feel dignified. There are several pathways to make that happen, but obviously we take the point that the entire burden should not be on the leader. There are systemic, levels, that need, help as well. And leaders can therefore behave better, lead better, and lead more responsibly. If the systems are in place and, helpful to do it in such a context, when one is called to lead responsibly, catering to a larger group of parties, it's a big challenge. But boss's decisions are likely to impact communities positively. Right here. So live from UOW Radio Studios. It's time to say goodbye. I'm Mario Fernando, along with our wonderful panellists Diana, Nelly and Nick. I thank you for being with us. Take care.